Apache OpenOffice (AOO) Bugzilla – Issue 12981
Beta 1.1 Changes Font and renders text unuseable
Last modified: 2004-06-04 18:23:16 UTC
Again: same file opened on same machine, once with 1.0.1 and onc with Beta 1.1. The file opened in Beta 1.1 is not useable, because it changes certain parameters uncontrollably. I wanted to print out a paper when I happened to see that the layout was different (6 instead of 5 pages), some chars were wrong. Some chars were converted to "HG Mincho Light J"; a font I never knew it would exist and thereby their appearance changed from " to ?. This *is* horrible for a publisher, when a proof-read and accepted paper turns out differently. I cannot get all my stuff corrected and proof-read again only because I upgrade the Office Suite (I know, it's a beta. But it *must* not get through to RC and shouldn't happen at all). I'll attach a screenshot ...
Created attachment 5435 [details] Shots of 1.0.1 and 1.1 of same file
TM->US: Seems to be more a word processor issue than a framework problem to me. Please have a look, thanks !
In general this task is double to issue 4008. But as it reveals some interesting aspects I'd like to keep it. *Custom quotes at the beginning of a paragraph or in a cell (of a Writer table) seem to be judged/handeled as CJK text --Mincho in my bugdoc, "HG Mincho Light J" in the description of this issue-- but should be detected as western (custom quotes are so called 'weak' characters). Thus the display of custom quotes at the beginning of a paragraph depends on the found CJK font. us->fme: is it correct that custom quotes are weaks? If so, why aren't they handled according to the (western) Office language? Additionally the CJK font was initially set to "Interface User". This indicates that the Writer calls the CJK Font from vcl with the value "none" =>bug. Will perform follow up. Probably due to this bug the custom quotes initially where treated as CTL-text and consequently displayed with "Lucidasans". Abstract: the displayed leading custom quotes, are probably displayed due to a bug in the Writer. But the question remains (->hdu) why not available glyphs in a font don't get replaced by the glyphfallback. Maybe due to the fact that X-Fonts are subject of a further level of glyphfallback, that isn't implemented yet. Workaround for the submitter: choose a different/scalable font or disable custom quotes or change the font size to 13/14pt.
Created attachment 5585 [details] custom quotes (Times) at the beginning of a paragraph
I don't really understand this stuff, but checked the other issue 4008. At least, I *did not* enable custom quotes (neither did I disable them), and the font is probably Times New Roman, 11 pt. (Don't have the file here.) My trouble is not how to work around; I could find one myself easily. My trouble is that when you publish a paper in a journal, the font and its size are prescribed. The paper is accepted and proof-read. Then you upgrade the wordprocessor and the whole things start to get messy. It is not only the custom quotes; the whole layout changes (5 pages -> 6 pages), the text becomes difficult to read (I filed another bug, but it doesn't show up !? in query). In any case, no spectacular stuff, Times New Roman, in the *same* format, and after the upgrade this same format (.sxw) messes up the layout. Do I have to send my excuses to billg for my many remarks of WORD being incompatible with WORD by the version? - This is what they'll throw at 'us' in the end: OO != OO Thanks for looking into this!
us->Uwe Dippel: complaining does not help improving the product. We try to find out the problem in order to fix it and you complain. Ignoring the flames: > "and the font is probably Times New Roman, 11 pt. (Don't have the file here.)" Do you have "Times New Roman" installed on your Linux Box? (Probably not, otherwise everything would display fine). Additionally pls. attach the bugdoc. Furthermore the behaviour has been changed in current inhouse versions. What bothers you was probably the following: when 'weaks' at the beginning of a paragraph had been detected, the Writer tried to find the desired glyph in western/CJK/CTL default font in exactly that order. But due to the fact that we now provide a sophisticated glyph-fallback for the whole Office, that code had be deactivated. I tend to close this task, as with appropriate fonts this issue wouldn't exist (e.g. with TurboLinux this problem does not occur in current inhouse version). And providing suitable fonts is the job of the Linux distributor.
I verified that glyph-fallback also works in this case, but there has to be at least one suitable font, where the desired glyphs could be taken from. This does obviously not apply to many Linux distros, but is not the lacking of the Office suite, but the Linux distri.
So we end up again at a font-problem? I can't access that machine in the days to come, so I wouldn't know about the installed fonts for some time. But please remember that with OO 1.0.1 everything was fine, including Times New Roman. So where would that font be? Either on the machine or embedded. I'm running 1.0.1 and beta 1.1 on that same machine and open the same file on that first screenshot. This "HG Mincho Light J" can be seen on the shot I made for beta 1.1. It was cropped for space reasons. As I wrote, I don't understand the underlying stuff, but still fail to comprehend that the writer automagically changes a font without any user intervention or warning. Even if Times New Roman wouldn't exist, is that Mincho-thingy the closest replacement (curiosity) ?
So went here on a free Saturday to check for curiosity. Under gnome-font-properties Times New Roman is offered, bold and italics and font-size of 11 pt.
Got it finally. Was too much focused on Times New Roman. In the original (1.0.1) the font was set to Helvetica and shows up as such on that quote. Helvetica is however *not* installed. No idea how 1.0.1 comes to show it !?
The other problem mentioned above and going along with the layout changes is found in issue 12697
Just to make it clear. Your so called "layout changes" are the result of font substitutions (which are of course not saved with the doc), because you don't have appropriate ones available. Now the differernce between OOo 1.0.x and 1.1.x is, that 1.0 doesn't support an i18n framework. The OOo 1.1 Beta now has (almost) all it takes to write in asian languages, horizontal and vertical, writing bidirectional for hebrew and arabic, writing with complex scripts like Hindi, Thai and the like. This is more the difference between a simple text editor and a modern, multilingual Office suite. As I already mentioned the substitution to "HG Mincho Light J" is no longer active in current builds. The Writer tried to replace the font (only for the display) of the custom quote to smth. that contains the glyph. Unfortunately your Linux distri comes with fonts (Helvetica/Times) that are not scalable. As you painfully learned, non scalable fonts are pretty useless for serious wordprocessing, as the supported glyphs are oftenly not available in the font size you need them. That's the point where font or glyph replacements start (in order to not only display questionmarks or nothing). Thus font replacement is always a compromise. The best solution is to have the same fonts installed on both machines, if working on the same document on different machines. To work around this trouble with different fonts (and resulting layout changes) almost all commercial software products (like the famous competitor and Sun's StarOffice) provide their own fonts. In other words, you will always see differences with OOo, if working on one document with a Windows host and a Linux host if they don't have the same fonts installed.
Thanks for your explanations. I might be too dumb for one aspect of it: "Your so called "layout changes" are the result of font substitutions (which are of course not saved with the doc), because you don't have appropriate ones available" I might be too dumb for this aspect of it, so I am asking again for clarification here: The 'so-called layout changes' happened on the *same* machine that *has* Times New Roman installed. Therefore your first paragraph remains unclear to me at least. Contrary to the other item, when a *non-existant* Helvetica was replaced with HG Mincho Light J, I should add. This last one is 'check' from my side.
OOo 1.1 RC provides beautiful TrueType fonts (Bitstream Vera font family).Unfortunatel they are not yet registered for font substitution purpose (will hopefully be done in OOo 1.1 RC2). You can do that manually in Tools/Options/Text document/ Basic Fonts Western. Font substitution itself has experienced massive improvements (lots of bugfixes) in 1.1 RC2. Thus I'd recommend to try OOo 1.1 RC2 when it becomes available and all the troubles should belong to the past. Stay tuned.
Right, much nicer. Tried the Bitstream fonts with RC1 and manual activation. Somewhat strange to look at, but with high readability and correct positioning.
US->Uwe Dippel: is this issue solved for you with OOo 1.1 and the provided Bitstream Vera fonts? Pls. give OOo 1.1 a try and comment. Thanks.
Considering task as fixed (at least improved).
Closing issue if no complaints arise.